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Downshifting       #: 776
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 Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2018 12:21 am
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MsDeRanger
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Hey guys, I have been having a problem when I downshift into second gear it grinds it also does it when I am
going into first gear but hardly ever. Yes I have the clutch in. It doesn't happen everytime mind you but seems to be happening more often than when I first got it. Yes I do have clutch fluid. I believe it seems to happen more when the
RPMs are higher rather than when I am going at a slower pace and downshifting.
Maybe someone will be able to help me out. 
Thanks



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 Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2018 12:55 am
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That could be a number of things. But my guess would be worn synchronizers.



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 Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2018 03:49 am
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Like Tsquare said, it's more then likely the synchronizers. Third is normally the first to go in the M5ROD because of the distance from second to third. Cheapest fix seems to be to change the ATF to a thicker manual transmission fluid. I've seen Royal Purple's Synchromax recommended, but reviews say the benefits don't last long.

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 Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2018 06:55 am
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MsDeRanger
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So are you saying sooner or later (closer to sooner) I am going to have to replace the clutch all together.
Remember now this is all new to me so when you say things like the M5ROD and ATF I could look it up
but asking you what the heck it is just seems funner. :D



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 Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2018 11:46 am
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MsDeRanger wrote:
So are you saying sooner or later (closer to sooner) I am going to have to replace the clutch all together.
Remember now this is all new to me so when you say things like the M5ROD and ATF I could look it up
but asking you what the heck it is just seems funner. :D

The synchronizers are in the transmission, it would have to be removed & taken apart & have them replaced & with the trans out I would replace the clutch also. M5ROD is the Ford model of the trans, & ATF means automatic transmission fluid. Ford started using ATF in manual transmissions for easier shifting in cold weather IIRC. The clutch is mounted to the flywheel which is mounted to the back of the crankshaft of the engine. Here are a couple links that show a clutch & manual transmission diagrams to help understand them.

http://www.procarcare.com/icarumba/resourcecenter/encyclopedia/icar_resourcecenter_encyclopedia_manualtran.asp

https://www.freeasestudyguides.com/hard-shifting-problems.html



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 Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2018 01:19 pm
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Your best bet would be to go with a heavier synthetic trans oil and change the way you are down shifting. Do not shift at the higher RPM's and lug it down before shifting.

It will get worse. It is happening occasionally on down-shift now. It will get to the point that it happens every time and it will start on the up-shift as well. Then it will be time to replace the transmission or have it repaired unless you have to replace a worn clutch before that happens. If you need to replace the clutch the transmission will be pulled, that would be the time to have the synchronizers and any worn parts replaced.



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 Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2018 08:49 pm
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Slow down your hand movement changing down - you need to give the gears time to match speeds which is what the synchros do - you are just pulling the gears into mesh before they have synchronised.

As the gearbox ages, the synchro rings wear and become less effective but if someone has added anti friction additives to the oil it won't help! 

My first step would to be to change the gearbox oil for fresh ATF fluid.



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 Posted: Sat Apr 14th, 2018 09:06 pm
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Dang chris has a point I had forgotton about from my early tranny days. Back when Lucas additive and synthetics first became popular people were putting it in their trannys and limited slip rear ends and having problems. Synchro rings and the clutches in some limited slip rear ends (I'm thinking old GM types with clutches) were slipping worse and gears grinding worse during shifting. The friction is needed for the synchro rings and the clutches. ATF is a good option because it isn't a lubricant per se it is more like a hydraulic fluid meant for that application.



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 Posted: Sun Apr 15th, 2018 03:02 am
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MsDeRanger
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Chris wrote:
Slow down your hand movement changing down - you need to give the gears time to match speeds which is what the synchros do - you are just pulling the gears into mesh before they have synchronised.

As the gearbox ages, the synchro rings wear and become less effective but if someone has added anti friction additives to the oil it won't help! 

My first step would to be to change the gearbox oil for fresh ATF fluid.

Change the gearbox oil areyou talking about the clutch oil? When I opened it the oil inside looked good there was 
nothing built up around it the rubber thing around it was good. Your saying just to be safe change it anyway?
I will slow my roll too anything to make it last a little longer than IT wants to.

Last edited on Sun Apr 15th, 2018 03:03 am by MsDeRanger



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 Posted: Sun Apr 15th, 2018 03:05 am
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I forgot.... thanks for all your help. :heart



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 Posted: Sun Apr 15th, 2018 03:11 am
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The gearbox oil is auto transmission fluid and it should be red. You were looking at the clutch master cylinder - it work a lot like a brake caliper but on the clutch.

Gearbox oil will have a fill hole on the side of the transmission. The drain hole is on the bottom. It shouldn't cost much more than an oil change at a Jiffy Lube or Pep Boys.



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 Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2018 01:59 am
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First off, your Clutch is not grinding, it is the gears in the transmission but I find if I try to shift down at higher rpms without racing up the engine, I may get a little grinding.
The same things goes for up-shifting, if the engine rpms aren't up, around 3000 rpms, then the trans sometimes grinds, not always.

I thought it was just me and my truck but it might be Rangers in general.

Try bringing the rpm up some when shifting up or down.



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 Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2018 05:04 am
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Tsquare wrote:
The gearbox oil is auto transmission fluid and it should be red. You were looking at the clutch master cylinder - it work a lot like a brake caliper but on the clutch.

Gearbox oil will have a fill hole on the side of the transmission. The drain hole is on the bottom. It shouldn't cost much more than an oil change at a Jiffy Lube or Pep Boys.

Ok now I got it, thanks for clairifying for me. It all came back to me in a rush I remember an ex boyfriend of mine talking about it (he went to UTI) wish I paid just a little more attention.... had I only known.



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 Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2018 05:14 am
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Scrambler82 wrote:
First off, your Clutch is not grinding, it is the gears in the transmission but I find if I try to shift down at higher rpms without racing up the engine, I may get a little grinding. 
The same things goes for up-shifting, if the engine rpms aren't up, around 3000 rpms, then the trans sometimes grinds, not always.

I thought it was just me and my truck but it might be Rangers in general.

Try bringing the rpm up some when shifting up or down.

I was NOT even going to say that it was MY driving because I could hear all the jokes or woman driver remarks only in an unobvious, obvious way. BUT I did slow my roll today while driving and it did make a big difference I can only remember one time where I grinded. So that is a good thing.



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 Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2018 05:33 am
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MsDeRanger wrote:   I was NOT even going to say that it was MY driving because I could hear all the jokes or woman driver remarks only in an unobvious, obvious way. BUT I did slow my roll today while driving and it did make a big difference I can only remember one time where I would grind the gears. So that is a good thing.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________



I have found I grind gears but only when I shift at too low an rpm.   I also down shift all the time for slowing down, been told the trans doesn't like it but too late for me to change old habits.

I recently had the clutch, pressure plate, and throw out bearing, replaced, with resurfacing of the flywheel and the truck does all of the same thing, grinding at low rpms, sometime miss a down shift... no difference.
Where I am going is have someone that knows for sure check it out before committing to a Clutch Job.

Just me... !

Last edited on Mon Apr 16th, 2018 05:18 pm by Scrambler82



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 Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2018 02:34 pm
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MsDeRanger nobody here will do the woman driver remarks. If anything you are doing something most drivers can't do now days - Driving a manual transmission.

I have destroyed more transmissions than I care to admit to due to aggressive shifting. With age I have mellowed a little in my driving habits. My Ranger has 100K less than yours and has an automatic transmission that is due for a rebuild but I am nursing it along. It is slow to go in reverse when cold but does it fine when warm. For over a year I have backing into my driveway so that when I leave with a cold engine/transmission it will go.

Last edited on Mon Apr 16th, 2018 07:32 pm by Tsquare



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 Posted: Mon Apr 16th, 2018 06:11 pm
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Routine downshifting and using the transmission instead of the service brakes is a bad driving habit that comes with a price. This because, it transfers brake lining wear to the transmission and accelerates wear of internal components. One of the two is much more expensive to fix than the other, guess which.



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 Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2018 06:46 pm
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CBB9M wrote:
Routine downshifting and using the transmission instead of the service brakes is a bad driving habit that comes with a price. This because, it transfers brake lining wear to the transmission and accelerates wear of internal components. One of the two is much more expensive to fix than the other, guess which.
I disagree, I had a 1996 Ranger 4x4 4.0 w5spd that I had purchased new & I downshifted almost all the time when slowing down & never had any adverse affects to the trans.



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 Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2018 01:55 am
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I agree with CBB9M - using the engine braking instead of the foot brake just wears out the clutch instead of the brake pads/shoes.

Much easier and cheaper to replace the brakes rather than the clutch.



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 Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2018 02:06 am
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Large semi trucks use an engine brake. Imagine the stress on the rods.

I am unqualified for an opinion, all the manual cars I had I used the regular brakes so I wouldn't know the effect on the clutch.



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 Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2018 03:10 am
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JAMMAN wrote:
Large semi trucks use an engine brake. Imagine the stress on the rods.

I am unqualified for an opinion, all the manual cars I had I used the regular brakes so I wouldn't know the effect on the clutch.

That is different. The drive-train in a diesel is built up a lot more than a gas engine to handle the pressures. Diesels are typically 16:1 compression with a turbo charger on top of it. The Jake brake turns off the injectors and opens exhaust valves in the cylinders after the compression cycle, releasing the compressed air trapped in the cylinders and slowing the vehicle. It is a lot less stress on the engine than running at 2k RPM.

The clutch pack in a tractor is also a lot beefier as is the transmission. If you have seen the trucks hauling a load through the mountains when they are going down the other side they are usually in 1 lower gear on the way down than they used going up because their brakes will fail if they tried to brake there way down. BTW: a 60k lb load on a 6% grade running 55 mph cannot stop with just their brakes and they will burn out fairly quickly. That is why you see trucks running 40mph riding the jake brake going down hill.

Last edited on Wed Apr 18th, 2018 03:27 am by Tsquare



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 Posted: Wed Apr 18th, 2018 04:13 pm
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Tsquare wrote:
JAMMAN wrote:

Large semi trucks use an engine brake. Imagine the stress on the rods.

I am unqualified for an opinion, all the manual cars I had I used the regular brakes so I wouldn't know the effect on the clutch.

That is different. The drive-train in a diesel is built up a lot more than a gas engine to handle the pressures. Diesels are typically 16:1 compression with a turbo charger on top of it. The Jake brake turns off the injectors and opens exhaust valves in the cylinders after the compression cycle, releasing the compressed air trapped in the cylinders and slowing the vehicle. It is a lot less stress on the engine than running at 2k RPM.

The clutch pack in a tractor is also a lot beefier as is the transmission. If you have seen the trucks hauling a load through the mountains when they are going down the other side they are usually in 1 lower gear on the way down than they used going up because their brakes will fail if they tried to brake there way down. BTW: a 60k lb load on a 6% grade running 55 mph cannot stop with just their brakes and they will burn out fairly quickly. That is why you see trucks running 40mph riding the jake brake going down hill.

A lot of modern 1 ton diesels come with built in engine brakes too.



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