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Creating a PTO option...       #: 1101
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 Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2018 09:52 pm
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I was trying to figure out what would be better or the combination of possibly both gearing and pulley size.

I am considering using a 7.5 axle due to its slightly smaller size and lighter weight as an axle setup for my Offroad Trailer build. I think with some effort and cleverness I could turn the driveshaft side into a working PTO to turn a small generator or alternator so that while the trailer was in motion, it would in-turn turn a pulley and belt setup with a specially mounted alternator to create power to charge a battery bank. This would offer me a chance to have onboard power creation as well solar power, and shore power options as backups or resources.

So my question is would gearing lend a hand to how fast the driveshaft knuckle turns or would that be most relative to the size of the pulley used; or would a combination thereof offer an even better unique combo?

Anyone's thoughts?



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 Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2018 10:25 pm
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Use whatever rear end you have, select pulleys to get the overall rpm you need for the generator at the average speed you will be traveling.

Since RPM for a generator is relatively high I would think the highest gear (lowest ratio) would be the most desirable, less pulley work to do. there was a 3.08 codes 82 (7.5) and 92 (8.8), code 84 was a 3.45 and code 85 was a 3.55 both 7.5. I feel open would work better than LS for this particular application.



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 Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2018 10:42 pm
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JAMMAN wrote:
Use whatever rear end you have, select pulleys to get the overall rpm you need for the generator at the average speed you will be traveling.

Since RPM for a generator is relatively high I would think the highest gear (lowest ratio) would be the most desirable, less pulley work to do. there was a 3.08 codes 82 (7.5) and 92 (8.8), code 84 was a 3.45 and code 85 was a 3.55 both 7.5. I feel open would work better than LS for this particular application.

My thoughts too.. Im just wondering what affects what and how. I had the old 3.08 gear 8.8 which would have worked despite my preference for a 7.5.. But I gave it to Tyler over on FRF a couple years ago when I swapped out to the 3.73 LS.

There has to be a way to calculate RPM from the Differential input side with the gearing combination. Obviously if I spin it faster it will charge at a better rate than slower in the sense of time. And I guess pulley size can match or alter but that baseline is what I am after or need. I have time but in the grand scheme of things, it can or could alter some electrical thoughts of wiring, gauge, ect...



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"The slave is held most securely when he is held by the chains of his own will and of his own fears, and when he is locked down by his own slavish desires for a comfortable life." - Michael Bunker

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Roman courtier during the reign of Nero.

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." - Thomas Paine


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 Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2018 12:43 am
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Start with the generator. What RPM is its max. Make that 70MPH you shouldn't be pulling a trailer over 70 anyway.



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 Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2018 03:07 am
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I would use an 8.8 out of an early foxbody mustang 84-86 the gt 5 speed cars had 2.73 gears. Should be an easy axle to find. But for the amount of fab work that would be in involved would a gas powered generator plumbed to an auxiliary fuel tank be efficient? It would definitely be easier to set up.



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 Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2018 04:27 am
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He is James. Easy is subject to interpretation.



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 Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2018 05:17 am
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black06xlt wrote:
I would use an 8.8 out of an early foxbody mustang 84-86 the gt 5 speed cars had 2.73 gears. Should be an easy axle to find. But for the amount of fab work that would be in involved would a gas powered generator plumbed to an auxiliary fuel tank be efficient? It would definitely be easier to set up.

Well, again if that had to be it is what it is but I feel the 7.5 lighter axle should be the most useful especially as you mentioned all the extra fab work needed to just mount it let alone the incorporation of a mass of new brake plumbing to keep the drums brakes functional on this trailer.. The Alt/Gen would be used just to keep the battery bank topped off while driving, otherwise I can plug it in here on the 3rd acre with the shore plug or the solar if in place by then.

The fuel tank will have its own electric fuel pump and locker for the pump setup as part of the dual locking tool/storage box forward of the bed. Particularly something like this: Roughneck 12V Fuel Transfer Pump — 8 GPM, Manual Nozzle, Hose but modified to safely work with OEM tank setup


JAMMAN wrote:
He is James. Easy is subject to interpretation.
I thought it was scary when I talked of me in the 3rd person... lol



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"Be never first, never last and never noticed." - Unknown

"The slave is held most securely when he is held by the chains of his own will and of his own fears, and when he is locked down by his own slavish desires for a comfortable life." - Michael Bunker

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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." - Thomas Paine


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 Posted: Thu Aug 2nd, 2018 02:19 pm
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why not use the power from the tow vehicle? Your ranger already has a spinning alternator when you are towing
Then use solar when camping

Also on a towed trailer, a wind generator may be easier then a PTO

When I was a kid I had a bicycle that used a small generator motor for a headlight, it was spring loaded and it had a rubber wheel that rode directly on the tire...again much easier then a PTO option



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 Posted: Fri Aug 3rd, 2018 06:05 am
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410customs wrote:
why not use the power from the tow vehicle? Your ranger already has a spinning alternator when you are towing
Then use solar when camping

Also on a towed trailer, a wind generator may be easier then a PTO

When I was a kid I had a bicycle that used a small generator motor for a headlight, it was spring loaded and it had a rubber wheel that rode directly on the tire...again much easier then a PTO option

Well, the tow vehicle is already running 3 Batteries; One start/crank battery, two reserve deep cycle batteries with the new [reman] but temporary Explorer 130a Alt. The trailer is meant to be a standalone unit, isolated from the truck but able to provide shore power for a campsite group.

The problem with wind generator is design and power storage:
a: I've not yet come across a unit meant for charging while at traveling speed and when at slower speeds, may even be useless unless traveling into a wind. Also seems to be decent, 65-75 MPH seems like a hell of a drag on a device.. plus size is a factor?.

b: wind generators are meant for "Time of use" power, its not able to be stored in batteries like solar power is.. The only way to store wind power is by keeping it cycling in constant turbine like fashion and then it can be tapped from but to store that I'd need another trailer with a pretty large electronic flywheel of sorts. Not really conducive in theory.

Still have that Bicycle generator? lol ;)



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"The slave is held most securely when he is held by the chains of his own will and of his own fears, and when he is locked down by his own slavish desires for a comfortable life." - Michael Bunker

"Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur. Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur" - ~ attributed to Petronius (Gaius Petronius Arbiter (ca. 27–66 AD))
Roman courtier during the reign of Nero.

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." - Thomas Paine


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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 02:55 pm
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Wind can power an alternator while driving around, no?
An alternator can charge up a battery rather quickly?
I may be mistaken just thinking out loud.

I do not still have that generator LOL nor a bicycle!



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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 04:20 pm
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You can't user a wind generator like this?
while going down the road I can see a turbine wheel spinning and charging, then at base camp solar takes over

http://www.pilotshop.com/catalog/eppages/gennipod11-14298.php?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=11-14298&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnZXbBRC8ARIsABEYg6AsrA8Gj_Tdu7cZGvYCi4vraso4Sftbdb14dQEOP6SEweKHJCgvn7EaAiBSEALw_wcB



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 Posted: Sat Aug 4th, 2018 11:28 pm
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Why not add a second alternator under the hood?



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 Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2018 12:38 am
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Now that would look cool!



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 Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2018 12:45 am
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BUT.... the PTO shaft idea I actually like. You could even mount the diff. point upward instead of sideways and run a pulley off a vertical shaft. There is one thing to be said about a mechanical connection... it usually works. The windmill looks like it needs 70MPH to work right, the alternate alternator would require brackets and belts attached to existing motor AND would require electrical connections from said alternator to trailer where the action is.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with OP about the PTO idea I like it.



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 Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2018 01:06 am
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Last edited on Sun Aug 5th, 2018 02:46 pm by VelociRanger



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 Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2018 10:31 am
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410customs wrote:
Wind can power an alternator while driving around, no?
An alternator can charge up a battery rather quickly?
I may be mistaken just thinking out loud.

I do not still have that generator LOL nor a bicycle!

I'm confused now.. lol The wind "could" charge the batteries but the Alt would be more efficient honestly. Answer further below...


410customs wrote:
You can't user a wind generator like this?
while going down the road I can see a turbine wheel spinning and charging, then at base camp solar takes over

http://www.pilotshop.com/catalog/eppages/gennipod11-14298.php?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=11-14298&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnZXbBRC8ARIsABEYg6AsrA8Gj_Tdu7cZGvYCi4vraso4Sftbdb14dQEOP6SEweKHJCgvn7EaAiBSEALw_wcB


"GenniPod Gen II was designed with the specification of providing approximately 4 amps of 12VDC power while flying at 75mph."

This tells me there is a minimal amount of speed needed. A Cessna 152 needs to be at an airspeed of like 68MPH to catch enough airflow under its wings to create lift. I think cruising speed is 110-120 with a top speed of what 125-130MPH. At slower than possible speeds I wouldn't get anything out of it and indeed at that point the solar could be active while in motion I suppose but the solar setup I have in mind; I haven't really done enough research on it for autonomy purposes (bad or poor weather conditions). So all in all I could forgo the Alt/PTO idea but it would be nice as a main or backup as would the solar configuration. Not looking really for the best case scenario more of less along the mindset of say someone who wants more than 1-2 ways to make fire (like 5 in mine) in their EDC or BOB.. lol

Tsquare wrote:
Why not add a second alternator under the hood?
Well here in lies other issues..
  • In the truck, there is already a 3 battery setup using a dual battery charging system. I can use the crank battery separate from the two deep cycles. However, should I kill the cranking battery, I have a way at the flcik of a button to join all the batteries to start the vehicle again. That already includes a single pair of 1/0 wires running down a frame rail from the battery to the old spare tire carrier area where the two deep cycles are [will be] housed in a saddled lightweight aluminum IP67 water proof/dust proof box that bolts to the carrier itself, (gives me easy access to the batteries should I need it and makes best use of the space).
  • The trailer will have another 2 Battery system - dual deep cycle 200ah batteries. (by my calculations, 12a [max in use would be 32a and never at once really] at 90* temps, with both batteries, should net me approx 29-31 hrs of use time before needing to be recharged; which at that point, solar will have kicked in obviously to recharge and top them off again).
  • Running yet another 1/0 or 2/0 pair of cables the length of the truck, - PLUS the trailer and gap between, isn't something I really want to do, have room for, want hanging between a hitch and a trailer connection, and or shall I surprise everyone - afford $25 a ft for 2/0 two additional runs of [and run it in a conduit as well too?) cable! I could certainly find better things to do with that kind of cash. lol
  • Also, after 2020-21 I will have hopefully met my scheduled agenda to be more than a spectator at the 2020 Expo West in Flagstaff and completed or at least be near completion of adding the 4BTa into the truck which means it will be needing to go offline for a few months. Thankfully we have other vehicles in the household to use. So designing a 2nd Alt system when even then Ideally I have access to creating a 300-380a Alt if need be.


JAMMAN wrote:
BUT.... the PTO shaft idea I actually like. You could even mount the diff. point upward instead of sideways and run a pulley off a vertical shaft. There is one thing to be said about a mechanical connection... it usually works. The windmill looks like it needs 70MPH to work right, the alternate alternator would require brackets and belts attached to existing motor AND would require electrical connections from said alternator to trailer where the action is.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with OP about the PTO idea I like it.

That would certainly add to both the complexity and ease of design.. I like it Jim. Great thought there. Would def have to create a full diff protector in that design approach too. And after thoughts, you seen the issues too.

Last edited on Sun Aug 5th, 2018 10:33 am by Undrstm8ed



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"Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur. Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur" - ~ attributed to Petronius (Gaius Petronius Arbiter (ca. 27–66 AD))
Roman courtier during the reign of Nero.

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." - Thomas Paine


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 Posted: Sun Aug 5th, 2018 04:36 pm
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I didn't read all of these postings, my head is not my own this AM, but one thing I would think running a high numerically numbered gear set, low gears, would allow the pinion to turn faster than than the wheel rpm, 7.5" Diff may not handle a very low ratio so an 8.8 might be better.  
The pulley size, to me I would measure the Crank Pulley and the existing Alternator Pulley and determine a standard ratio.
Then determine your usual cursing speed and the RPMs of the Pinion Shaft, from there you can determine the pulley size and ratios to get the Alternator up to the desired RPMs to make electricity, also there may need to be an exciter wire to get the alternator charging, maybe a running light wire could do it !



Added:
Was just thinking... SMOKE, if you mounted the Alternator stationary under or in the trailer and used a drive shaft, which would be at the same rpms of the pinion, with a Drive Shaft Support and Pulley arrangement, you wouldn't have to worry about any suspension woes.

Last edited on Sun Aug 5th, 2018 04:40 pm by Scrambler82



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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 08:27 am
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Scrambler82 wrote:
I didn't read all of these postings, my head is not my own this AM, but one thing I would think running a high numerically numbered gear set, low gears, would allow the pinion to turn faster than than the wheel rpm, 7.5" Diff may not handle a very low ratio so an 8.8 might be better.  
The pulley size, to me I would measure the Crank Pulley and the existing Alternator Pulley and determine a standard ratio.
Then determine your usual cursing speed and the RPMs of the Pinion Shaft, from there you can determine the pulley size and ratios to get the Alternator up to the desired RPMs to make electricity, also there may need to be an exciter wire to get the alternator charging, maybe a running light wire could do it !



Added:
Was just thinking... SMOKE, if you mounted the Alternator stationary under or in the trailer and used a drive shaft, which would be at the same rpms of the pinion, with a Drive Shaft Support and Pulley arrangement, you wouldn't have to worry about any suspension woes.

I curse at all speeds Sir.... A L L Speeds....... lol

I did think about the pully dimensions, but then I started thinking about the speeds and wasn't sure If I was on the correct path.

Last edited on Mon Aug 6th, 2018 08:31 am by Undrstm8ed



____________________
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"Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur. Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur" - ~ attributed to Petronius (Gaius Petronius Arbiter (ca. 27–66 AD))
Roman courtier during the reign of Nero.

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." - Thomas Paine


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 Posted: Mon Aug 6th, 2018 12:19 pm
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Undrstm8ed wrote:
Scrambler82 wrote:

I didn't read all of these postings, my head is not my own this AM, but one thing I would think running a high numerically numbered gear set, low gears, would allow the pinion to turn faster than than the wheel rpm, 7.5" Diff may not handle a very low ratio so an 8.8 might be better.  
The pulley size, to me I would measure the Crank Pulley and the existing Alternator Pulley and determine a standard ratio.
Then determine your usual cursing speed and the RPMs of the Pinion Shaft, from there you can determine the pulley size and ratios to get the Alternator up to the desired RPMs to make electricity, also there may need to be an exciter wire to get the alternator charging, maybe a running light wire could do it !



Added:
Was just thinking... SMOKE, if you mounted the Alternator stationary under or in the trailer and used a drive shaft, which would be at the same rpms of the pinion, with a Drive Shaft Support and Pulley arrangement, you wouldn't have to worry about any suspension woes.

I curse at all speeds Sir.... A L L Speeds....... lol

I did think about the pully dimensions, but then I started thinking about the speeds and wasn't sure If I was on the correct path.

Undrstm8ed,

I'm just thinking on the run.
You need to know at what rpm the alternator will produce the amperage you need.
Then you can work backwards to the speed of the pinion shaft and size the bullies from there.

Probably isn't as easy as I'm thinking, but I like the idea..

It will be interesting to see how you handle this, definitely something to think on !

Also, how do you intend to mount the Alternator, it would take a beating on the axle, I would think it should be mounted to the frame with a driveshaft.

Anyhow..., make sure to post, I would like to know how this turns out !



____________________
Ltr,
2003 EDGE, Std Cab, Steppie, E4 Red, 5sp, 4x
5" SuperLift, 33" x 12.50 x 15"
Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
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