Ford-Rangers.com Ranger Forum HomeFord-Rangers.com Ranger Forum Home
Home Recent Topics New posts Search search Menu menu Not logged in - Login | Register
Ford-Rangers.com Ranger Forum > Tech Section > Electrical Tech > For the electrical wizards... buggman needs help

Ford-rangers.com is a discussion forum, a Ranger forum for people who have questions about fixing or modifying
their Ford Rangers or people who just admire their Ranger. Please join and enjoy sharing experiences!

For the electrical wizards... buggman needs help       #: 849
 Moderated by: NoPower, Mike69, MaDMaXX
New Topic Reply
 Rate Topic 
 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2018 05:55 am
PM Quote Reply
1st Post
buggman

Do Not Touch The Trim!


Joined: Thu Oct 19th, 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 218
Name: 
Occupation: 
Interests: 
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 453
I may ban myself for posting a non ranger thread, but it's in the ranger family (kinda) so I'll let it slide for now....

In my 03 Explorer I'm trying to find a 12v source that only gets power when the vehicle is running, not when it's off & not when the key is in accy (or on since it doesn't have a normal accy spot like my ranger does). 

I've been through the chilton's manual a million times, searched online forever yet I still can't get anywhere.
The only Run Only power I've found is the small wire at the alternator, think it's the "exciter" that tells the alt to charge. It seems to be controlled by the PCM & I'm weary about tapping it although I'd run a diode & small fuse to prevent any voltage feeding back through the circuit.

All the fuses I've tested under the hood that are supposed to be "hot run only" are hot when running & when the key is on which defeats my purpose.

The simple thing would be to run a switch that's key switched, but I'd like to have something that comes on automatically when the truck is running & shuts off when it's not running.
Whatever I tap won't have any noticeable load, only a few mA of current to trigger a relay. This relay will be powered directly from the battery (fused at the battery also).

I know a few of our members work at Ford dealerships, hopefully someone has ran into this before or could check their manuals.



____________________
1996 XLT Supercab 4.0L 4x4
Lots of Explorer parts & tons of my custom mods.
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2018 12:50 pm
PM Quote Reply
2nd Post
RCR4V3N
Member
 

Joined: Sun Jan 14th, 2018
Location: Montgomery AlabamaUSA
Posts: 45
Name: 
Occupation: 
Interests: 
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 95
The issue is the circuits are controlled by the switch position (off-accessory-run-start). Your best bet is to get an aftermarket voltage sensing relay that activates at 14v to trigger with alternator voltage instead of the battery/switch position.

Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2018 01:25 pm
PM Quote Reply
3rd Post
410customs

Idahome


Joined: Wed May 2nd, 2018
Location: Panhandle IdahoUSA
Posts: 1937
Name: Jamie
Occupation: Elevator Design Worlds Tallest Buildings
Interests: Ranger Based Vehicles and OFFROAD
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 4252
There should be a few ACC circuits for you to choose from
You will likely find one behind the radio or at the ignition switch



____________________
I build custom RBV, specializing in drivetrain conversions, wiring, suspension and complete custom trucks
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2018 03:53 pm
PM Quote Reply
4th Post
Scrambler82
New Audio On The Way !


Joined: Fri Dec 22nd, 2017
Location: California USA
Posts: 1778
Name: Grev B
Occupation: Quality Assurance Engineer
Interests: Rangers, Photography, Metal Bending
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 2498
I am thinking, out loud, that the Interior Fuse Panel won't have that circuit in it, more of an Accessory Panel.
Have you checked the Fuse Panel under the hood for an open circuit with the characteristics you want ?
There seems like there is always an open circuit to play with.

Next would be to trace back the Engine Run Circuit to the Fuse panel, check the load of the circuit and the fuse size and then determine if it can handle the extra load, also dependent on the size of the wire and the length of time it will be drawing the extra current.

Ford has a habit of using only the gauge wire that is necessary to run what it wants, nothing extra in gauge of wire.

My first pass would be the Circuit Panel under the hood, there has to be be a run only circuit there somewhere ?

Is there a Schematics on that fuse panel, send me a link, can't promise anything but I will look through it !



____________________
Ltr,
2003 EDGE, Std Cab, Steppie, E4 Red, 5sp, 4x
5" SuperLift, 33" x 12.50 x 15"
Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2018 07:13 pm
PM Quote Reply
5th Post
JAMMAN

Owns A Torsen


Joined: Mon Sep 18th, 2017
Location: Grove City OhioUSA
Posts: 5328
Name: Jim
Occupation: Design and Innovation
Interests: RBV's, Computers
Status: 
Online
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 8517
Think "if". If rpm then relay on. I would use the tach signal to trigger an OK for a relay.

If you haven't figured it out in a few days I could dig in to it but I have a mechanical job to be done first. I'm "carless" right now.

Truckless would better describe it.



____________________
00 XLT 2WD RCSB 5.0 swap Gherkin
00 XLT 4WD XCSB 4.0 G2
00 XLT 4WD RCSB 3.GO! Jalapeño
00 XLT 4WD RCSB Steppie 3.blown. Mistake
99 XL 4WD RCSB 3.0 PJ (Plain Jane)
00 XLT 2WD RC Steppie 2.5 Dee Dee

ALL Amazon Green Metallic
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Wed May 9th, 2018 07:17 pm
PM Quote Reply
6th Post
JAMMAN

Owns A Torsen


Joined: Mon Sep 18th, 2017
Location: Grove City OhioUSA
Posts: 5328
Name: Jim
Occupation: Design and Innovation
Interests: RBV's, Computers
Status: 
Online
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 8517
RCR4V3N wrote:
The issue is the circuits are controlled by the switch position (off-accessory-run-start). Your best bet is to get an aftermarket voltage sensing relay that activates at 14v to trigger with alternator voltage instead of the battery/switch position.
That would work also, though it would fail if the alternator went down. You could set it to 12.9V I've never seen a battery at 12.9V but I have seen an alternator drop down to 13.3 or so with a full charge on the battery.



____________________
00 XLT 2WD RCSB 5.0 swap Gherkin
00 XLT 4WD XCSB 4.0 G2
00 XLT 4WD RCSB 3.GO! Jalapeño
00 XLT 4WD RCSB Steppie 3.blown. Mistake
99 XL 4WD RCSB 3.0 PJ (Plain Jane)
00 XLT 2WD RC Steppie 2.5 Dee Dee

ALL Amazon Green Metallic
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Thu May 10th, 2018 01:00 am
PM Quote Reply
7th Post
Dusten
Member


Joined: Sat Jan 13th, 2018
Posts: 614
Name: 
Occupation: 
Interests: cars, trucks, running
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 1044
JAMMAN wrote:
RCR4V3N wrote:

The issue is the circuits are controlled by the switch position (off-accessory-run-start). Your best bet is to get an aftermarket voltage sensing relay that activates at 14v to trigger with alternator voltage instead of the battery/switch position.
That would work also, though it would fail if the alternator went down. You could set it to 12.9V I've never seen a battery at 12.9V but I have seen an alternator drop down to 13.3 or so with a full charge on the battery.

My lightning is routinely at 13.6-13.9

Buggman, I don't think other than the exciter wire on the alternator you'll find what you're looking for.  The vehicles electronics don't differentiate between running and off.

Another option would be to find a source like a cam or crank sensor and use that voltage to trigger a relay.



____________________
2001 Ford Lightning - Built Motor - Built Trans - 2.9 Whipple - E85 - Custom Interior - 537/632 - 11.40 @ 119.6(old setup)
1968 Ford Mustang "Gold Nugget Special"
2018 Ford Mustang GT PP1
1999 Ranger
https://www.youtube.com/user/lightningdusten
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Thu May 10th, 2018 02:18 am
PM Quote Reply
8th Post
Tsquare
Member


Joined: Fri Nov 10th, 2017
Location: Suwanee GeorgiaUSA
Posts: 1229
Name: 
Occupation: Controlled Insanity
Interests: 
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 2219
I was thinking of a digital infrared motion sensor pointed towards the radiator fan. It would trigger a relay to apply power to a circuit.

About $6 for a sensor (DFROBOT SEN0018 Gravity), $5 for the relay (12V 30 40A Spdt Bosch ), and the cost for wire and loom. You pull power from a key-on accessory fusebox to power the sensor (needs to be be dropped to 3 volts- $2 varistor can do this) and relay operations.



____________________
Tony
NE ATL
'04 XLT regular cab 3.slo stepside
Came out of retirement to drive a school bus - I have lost my mind
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Thu May 10th, 2018 08:00 pm
PM Quote Reply
9th Post
buggman

Do Not Touch The Trim!


Joined: Thu Oct 19th, 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 218
Name: 
Occupation: 
Interests: 
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 453
Well, I ordered a couple different undervoltage protection boards to play around with.
Hopefully they'll adjust the trigger voltage to 14v or just over the resting voltage of the main agm battery so it'll kick off when it's supposed to.
They have their own small relay rated at 10a but I think I'm gonna use that output to trigger a standard relay to power the isolator solenoid... it draws up to 8a spike when it first kicks on & 5a continuous) & I'm not sure how much I trust a $4 ebay part. Better safe than sorry :-) Now it's just a waiting game for the boat from China to get here with the goods.



____________________
1996 XLT Supercab 4.0L 4x4
Lots of Explorer parts & tons of my custom mods.
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Thu May 24th, 2018 03:27 am
PM Quote Reply
10th Post
buggman

Do Not Touch The Trim!


Joined: Thu Oct 19th, 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 218
Name: 
Occupation: 
Interests: 
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 453
Finally got in one of the voltage protection boards to play with. So far I have mixed feelings with this.

I set a turn on voltage of around 13.8v and a turn off voltage of around 12.8v and it works on my bench power supply, but if I adjust the voltage slowly, I notice that I can make the relay continuously cycle if I hit just the right voltage. I'm not sure if this will happen when installed in the expo as the alternator voltage at idle was around 14v and battery resting voltage was around 12.8v, I'm hoping that the voltage will drop quickly enough when not running that it won't set at that quirky voltage load where it makes the relay go crazy. I couldn't really test the 1500rpm voltage at the battery by myself, but I know it should be over 14.5v but the idle voltage should be enough of a difference in the resting battery voltage.
Definitely don't want that 500a solenoid to be cycling that quickly.



____________________
1996 XLT Supercab 4.0L 4x4
Lots of Explorer parts & tons of my custom mods.
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Thu May 24th, 2018 04:59 pm
PM Quote Reply
11th Post
Scrambler82
New Audio On The Way !


Joined: Fri Dec 22nd, 2017
Location: California USA
Posts: 1778
Name: Grev B
Occupation: Quality Assurance Engineer
Interests: Rangers, Photography, Metal Bending
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 2498
Im lost... a little !
What is going on with the circuit you want to build, what are you trying to do ?

Top Secret Stuff... ! If this circuit is a must have on, connecting it to the Alternator output voltage will work as long as the voltage output remains in the working range of the voltage sensing relay.
If the Alternator Voltage Regulator, loses some of its output and idles at a lower voltage than normal, then the relay won't trigger and do what it is you need done.

If the Circuit you are building doesn't trigger "On", will there be a problem ?

To me not knowing for sure what the circuit does, Im thinking a SPST Relay would work more reliable !

If the Circuit needs a delay "On", then there are delay on relays but once it is activated it will be on not waiting to hear from the Alternator to go live !

First... please straighten me out, (I guess I missed something) where is the circuit going to be used ?



____________________
Ltr,
2003 EDGE, Std Cab, Steppie, E4 Red, 5sp, 4x
5" SuperLift, 33" x 12.50 x 15"
Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Fri May 25th, 2018 02:27 am
PM Quote Reply
12th Post
JAMMAN

Owns A Torsen


Joined: Mon Sep 18th, 2017
Location: Grove City OhioUSA
Posts: 5328
Name: Jim
Occupation: Design and Innovation
Interests: RBV's, Computers
Status: 
Online
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 8517
buggman wrote:
Finally got in one of the voltage protection boards to play with. So far I have mixed feelings with this.

I set a turn on voltage of around 13.8v and a turn off voltage of around 12.8v and it works on my bench power supply, but if I adjust the voltage slowly, I notice that I can make the relay continuously cycle if I hit just the right voltage. I'm not sure if this will happen when installed in the expo as the alternator voltage at idle was around 14v and battery resting voltage was around 12.8v, I'm hoping that the voltage will drop quickly enough when not running that it won't set at that quirky voltage load where it makes the relay go crazy. I couldn't really test the 1500rpm voltage at the battery by myself, but I know it should be over 14.5v but the idle voltage should be enough of a difference in the resting battery voltage.
Definitely don't want that 500a solenoid to be cycling that quickly.

It's not going to do that on the vehicle. I bet the relay is dipping the power supply when it comes on, the voltage lowers momentarily turning the relay off, lack of draw causes a surge in the power supply upwards which turns the relay back on.

If you aren't already use a diode for the flyback current. This is a must for all relays with the coil hooked to anything electronic.



____________________
00 XLT 2WD RCSB 5.0 swap Gherkin
00 XLT 4WD XCSB 4.0 G2
00 XLT 4WD RCSB 3.GO! Jalapeño
00 XLT 4WD RCSB Steppie 3.blown. Mistake
99 XL 4WD RCSB 3.0 PJ (Plain Jane)
00 XLT 2WD RC Steppie 2.5 Dee Dee

ALL Amazon Green Metallic
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Fri May 25th, 2018 02:36 am
PM Quote Reply
13th Post
buggman

Do Not Touch The Trim!


Joined: Thu Oct 19th, 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 218
Name: 
Occupation: 
Interests: 
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 453
lol, i'm probably making this more complicated than it needs to be.
basically i want to switch on a relay whenever the expo is running but not when the key is on or not running. this will control my battery isolator solenoid (basically a huge 500a relay, but it draws 8a so i want to use a smaller relay to trigger the solenoid)

this will charge both batteries when running & the alternator is charging, but keep the batteries separated when off or if i want to listen to the stereo with the vehicle off.

the voltage controlled relays i got should do what i'm trying to do.
if i set the turn on voltage at around 13.5v it should kick on the isolator when the alternator chaarges the battery & by setting the turn off voltage at around 12.8v it should turn off a few seconds after it's shut off & the battery returns to resting voltage.
i'll probably have to play with the on/off adjustments until i get everything dialed in.

as a bonus, i found the voltage sensing relay modules have a "force on" connection where i can install a switch somewhere in the cabin should the main battery ever go down & not start, i can connect the aux battery for a quick boost.



____________________
1996 XLT Supercab 4.0L 4x4
Lots of Explorer parts & tons of my custom mods.
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Fri May 25th, 2018 03:18 pm
PM Quote Reply
14th Post
Chris

Wrench spinner


Joined: Thu Oct 5th, 2017
Posts: 1755
Name: Chris
Occupation: Retired
Interests: Science, technology, horses
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 2406
Look to motor home or marine setups - they often have starting and leisure batteries charged from the alternator but otherwise isolated.



____________________


MG power
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Fri May 25th, 2018 03:59 pm
PM Quote Reply
15th Post
Scrambler82
New Audio On The Way !


Joined: Fri Dec 22nd, 2017
Location: California USA
Posts: 1778
Name: Grev B
Occupation: Quality Assurance Engineer
Interests: Rangers, Photography, Metal Bending
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 2498
buggman wrote:
lol, i'm probably making this more complicated than it needs to be.
basically i want to switch on a relay whenever the expo is running but not when the key is on or not running. this will control my battery isolator solenoid (basically a huge 500a relay, but it draws 8a so i want to use a smaller relay to trigger the solenoid)

this will charge both batteries when running & the alternator is charging, but keep the batteries separated when off or if i want to listen to the stereo with the vehicle off.

the voltage controlled relays i got should do what i'm trying to do. 
if i set the turn on voltage at around 13.5v it should kick on the isolator when the alternator chaarges the battery & by setting the turn off voltage at around 12.8v it should turn off a few seconds after it's shut off & the battery returns to resting voltage.
i'll probably have to play with the on/off adjustments until i get everything dialed in.

as a bonus, i found the voltage sensing relay modules have a "force on" connection where i can install a switch somewhere in the cabin should the main battery ever go down & not start, i can connect the aux battery for a quick boost.

Buggman,

I understand... thanks !

I know you like to build stuff yourself, I do too to a degree, but why not get a standard Battery Isolation setup ?
Won't the standard Isolation Setup do what you want ?

Also, since an alternator only charges when the battery(s) need charging, will that interfere with the Voltage sensing relay or will the alternator actuate and start putting out a voltage because of the Relay Draw ?

Smell the smoke AGAIN !



____________________
Ltr,
2003 EDGE, Std Cab, Steppie, E4 Red, 5sp, 4x
5" SuperLift, 33" x 12.50 x 15"
Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Fri May 25th, 2018 05:38 pm
PM Quote Reply
16th Post
Tsquare
Member


Joined: Fri Nov 10th, 2017
Location: Suwanee GeorgiaUSA
Posts: 1229
Name: 
Occupation: Controlled Insanity
Interests: 
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 2219
What you are making is an automatic transfer switch with a manual override - correct?

I have seen this with duel generator or generator/shore power setups but nothing in a 12 or 24 volt power range that was electronically controlled. Marine duel battery switches are all manual. There are some controllers that will monitor voltage in battery #2 and when it drops below a set voltage it has the charging circuit turned on till it reaches upper threshold.



____________________
Tony
NE ATL
'04 XLT regular cab 3.slo stepside
Came out of retirement to drive a school bus - I have lost my mind
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Fri May 25th, 2018 06:28 pm
PM Quote Reply
17th Post
buggman

Do Not Touch The Trim!


Joined: Thu Oct 19th, 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 218
Name: 
Occupation: 
Interests: 
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 453
I had a diode type battery isolator but it was only good for up to 200a & i now have a 250a alternator.
the diode style would have probably worked, even with the .8v drop.



____________________
1996 XLT Supercab 4.0L 4x4
Lots of Explorer parts & tons of my custom mods.
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Sun May 27th, 2018 02:39 am
PM Quote Reply
18th Post
Scrambler82
New Audio On The Way !


Joined: Fri Dec 22nd, 2017
Location: California USA
Posts: 1778
Name: Grev B
Occupation: Quality Assurance Engineer
Interests: Rangers, Photography, Metal Bending
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 2498
buggman wrote:
I had a diode type battery isolator but it was only good for up to 200a & i now have a 250a alternator.
the diode style would have probably worked, even with the .8v drop.

Just talking out loud.
I would have guessed there would be a Diode Type Isolator for almost any amperage.

I will back off with my suggestions.

An interesting Thread, I will keep reading.

Ltr



____________________
Ltr,
2003 EDGE, Std Cab, Steppie, E4 Red, 5sp, 4x
5" SuperLift, 33" x 12.50 x 15"
Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Mon May 28th, 2018 02:53 am
PM Quote Reply
19th Post
buggman

Do Not Touch The Trim!


Joined: Thu Oct 19th, 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 218
Name: 
Occupation: 
Interests: 
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 453
i never could find anything for over 250a. i'm sure somebody makes one though.

had a couple days to work on the project again... so far everything is working as it should.

the turn on voltage is set to 13.8v-14v & it turns on right after startup. i've been playing with adjustments on the turn off voltage & i think it's set to around 13.5v now. it kicks off within 30 seconds of turning the key off.

got the aux battery fused & connected now too.

next up will be charging the amp caps & tuning the amp.
it will be nice to finally have some sounds in there again.



____________________
1996 XLT Supercab 4.0L 4x4
Lots of Explorer parts & tons of my custom mods.
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Tue Jun 5th, 2018 05:23 am
PM Quote Reply
20th Post
buggman

Do Not Touch The Trim!


Joined: Thu Oct 19th, 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 218
Name: 
Occupation: 
Interests: 
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 453
little update on this project...

i have everything installed (for the most part) and the voltage controlled relay module is working about 93% perfectly.
i've noticed when i have the a/c on, wipers, headlights, etc. while idling, sometimes the relay wants to kick off like it's hitting the turn off voltage.

I have noticed that this alternator seems to have a "low" point at idle with lots of stuff on where i can hear the a/c blower motor slow down a few rpms.

I'm thinking it's just gonna take a few more adjustments to the turn off voltage pot on the board, so it's not a huge deal... just gotta wait till the evening when it's not so darn hot where I can adjust things.

Once I have everything ironed out, I'm definitely gonna but a kit together 'cause I know this is gonna be a handy mod for guys & gals who want to run 2 batteries but keep them isolated when not running.

Still waiting on a spare center console section where i can mount some voltmeters to keep tabs on both batteries.

One other odd thing i noticed is the pioneer double din radio wants to power up the amp turn on wire whenever the screen is on. Not sure exactly why it doesn't work like every other amp turn on wire & just turn on the amp when the head unit is actually in use, but i guess this is a "feature" of this pioneer.



____________________
1996 XLT Supercab 4.0L 4x4
Lots of Explorer parts & tons of my custom mods.
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

 Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2018 01:01 am
PM Quote Reply
21st Post
sheltonfilms
Electronicals / Forscan Expert


Joined: Fri Nov 24th, 2017
Location: Hoover AlabamaUSA
Posts: 122
Name: 
Occupation: 
Interests: 
Status: 
Offline
Reputation: 
Reputation Points: 272
Sounds like you need to smooth out the voltage fluctuations that cause the cut outs. Could add a capacitor to stabilize the voltage (low pass filter).



____________________
2000 XLT 2.5L A/T 2WD
Mods:
Power Windows/Locks Mirrors using OEM harness and parts
Explorer Sportrac White Face Cluster
Explorer OHC and Auto-dim Mirror
Auto Door Locks
Full HID Projector Retrofit
Back To Top PM Quote Reply

Current time is 12:45 pm Top  

Ford-Rangers.com Ranger Forum > Tech Section > Electrical Tech > For the electrical wizards... buggman needs help

Users viewing this topic



© 2007-2020 Chris -N- Jim
Page processed in 0.2857 seconds (14% database + 86% PHP). 97 queries executed.